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25: Header evac
Note, I have seen header evacs used with mixed results, same with useing a cheap vaccum pump set up. Last problem was solved useing a real wet sump vacum pump from aerospace. But, here are some pics of setups that I have seen work.
There is some discussion below about this angle, I have done two of these that did work, one that did not, take it for what it is.
This setup was tried with a new Corvette pump, it seemed to do allright, dont think the engine was sealed up well enough, it would still blow the dipstick at max rpm.
Evac. pumps and collector tubes for dummies
July 10 2002 at 2:54 AM
I understand the theory behind both, vacuum pumps and collector
'suction' tubes but is either one actually a practical system for a
street machine? I see a lot of both, but sometimes people do things
more for appearance and the 'in' thing rather than for practicality.
As far as a evac pump system, what is consisted in a typical system.
What is the estimated cost for a complete system and are there any
salvage yard pieces that can be used? I realize that there are
probably a lot of variables but I'm talking about something for a
moderately built street car.
Re: Evac. pumps and collector tubes for dummies
July 10 2002, 11:42 AM
BBF truck pumps work well, plumbing is very straight forward. Plumb
outlet to a catch can. If the engine is not sealed tight you will
just suck in a lot of uotside air with no advantage. On our engines
that pull high pan vac you can here the air entering the engine for
a good 20 seconds after the engine has stopped running. A single
retightening of the valve covers can yeild 5"hg if tha vac seems
Standard type crank seals usually don't like to hold much vaccum
since they were originally designed to keep oil and air in the
engine as opposed to keeping air from entering the engine.
Full Exhaust with Pan Evac.....
July 10 2002, 4:59 PM
..does not work well due to the backpressure caused by a street type
exhaust. I run the Vac pump sold thru SVO or who ever they call
themselves these days. It is a truck pump & does quite well. If you
use a good oil/ air seperater it will last & last. MIne is a race
application. Hope this helps.
July 10 2002, 7:52 PM
Are you saying that even with straight thru mufflers off of tube
headers there's too much back pressure to utilize the evac with
piped bungs in the collectors?
July 11 2002, 4:36 PM
I run Moroso rocker evac. pipes into the collecters on my street
car. They work, the system is dual 3 1/2" with homemade Flowmaster
copied mufflers. When the pipes come off at the track there is oil
in the collecter but not too much. It pulls enough vacuum to stop
the dipstick lifting etc at the top end.
July 12 2002, 8:49 AM
Thanks Jacko. That sounds right to me as it's pulling an oil fog. As
oil and air never actually mix, most of the air would disappear upon
hitting the collector heat (with attached exhaust pipes), leaving
traces of oil in the collector.
Collector tubes with full exhaust.
July 12 2002, 9:43 AM
The tubes may have worked for Jacko but I have seen them not work
with full exhaust. His exhaust system is 3.5 inches so that may be
one reason it works in his case. On a street car I would lean more
towards the evac. pump.
Thanks for the input guys. n/m
July 13 2002, 10:06 PM
Egr or Pan evac or vacuum pump????
October 30 2003 at 8:49 AM
Finally putting the finishing touches on my Street/Strip BBF. The
engine builder has recommended that I not just run breathers in the
valve covers and that I get set up with something to create some
vacuum in the engine.
My first question is if I run a pan evac system plumbed down to the
headers, will the benefits be destroyed if I run mufflers?
Are any of you running vacuum pumps (and if so, whose?) on your
What would you recommend i run?
October 30 2003, 4:21 PM
I wonder if you could plumb the pan-evac into the muffler outlet
instead of the header collector??
Naw, it will work fine.
October 30 2003, 5:11 PM
I just put on the miloden crankcase evac kit this weekend. Welded
the bung into each collector, its a piece of cake to hook up. I run
mufflers, and even at idle I felt a decent suction coming through
the hose...which would pick up even more at speed. I'm real happy
with it. Besides better ring seal and less noxious sludge build up,
I'm sure I picked up another 30hp (j/k).
October 30 2003, 10:09 PM
It would be interesting to plumb a vacuum gauge into your valve
cover to see how much vacuum your crankcase evac system is actually
drawing. Even at low vacuum your evac is still reducing crankcase
pressure and fumes, which is always beneficial.
To get the most HP benefits, seem to come when you can subject your
crankcase to about 15 inches of vacuum.
My power brake vacuum pump creates over 20 inches of vacuum, to use
that I would need to step it down. Any thoughts on how to do that?
Then I would need to use and Oil/Water seperator tank, so no fluid
gets to the pump.
Header evac tube questions.
February 13 2004 at 9:21 AM
As everyone knows, header evac tubes work. Has anyone ever put two
on each header and y'd them together to produce more vacuum? Will
"PULLIN FOR CHRIST" Bret
More volume, same peak pressure...
February 13 2004, 9:29 AM
I think it would probably pull more volume, but the peak pressures
would probably be the same. Unless that increased volume was needed
to help offset a bad leaker.
Don't Weld the Tubes in Backwards
February 13 2004, 8:27 PM
If my memory serves me correctly, Moroso's or Mr. Gasket's
directions/diagram is WRONG! The open side of the angle cut needs to
be facing the rear of the collector towards the open end. It does
not need to be parallel with the flow and of course not facing the
flow. Believe it or not, I've seen them welded in, turned the wrong
way, a dozen times.
Yeah, I'll angle them so as to build pressure...
February 13 2004, 8:43 PM
in the crankcase better, maybe it'll have more compression! Don't it
work that way? Naa, just kidding. I make my own tubes and buy the
check valves separate.
So what's your thought on doubling them up? Hmmm?
"PULLIN FOR CHRIST" Bret
Now ya tell me
February 13 2004, 8:47 PM
I thought it was backwards when I put mine in but followed the
directions.I'll be cutting them back out and turning them
around.Thanks for the info.
DENNIS, what'd ya do that for?
February 13 2004, 8:52 PM
I made mine out of regular black pipe. Cut an angle on the pipe and
then cut a small approximate 90* angle to that and face the short
cut to the back, then do a little fine tuning with a grinder. That
is harder to expain than it looks. Hmm, I guess a pic is worth a
I'm just teasing you Dennis!
"PULLIN FOR CHRIST" Bret
Re: DENNIS, what'd ya do that for?
February 13 2004, 9:13 PM
I do things like that so I will always have something to fix. Why
didn't you tell me they were backwards when you looked at them?
Should'a known it would be my fault!
February 13 2004, 9:27 PM
I guess I did look at them didn't I? Wasn't it pretty cold out? Er,
uh, something like that.
"PULLIN FOR CHRIST" Bret
February 13 2004, 9:46 PM
Who's directions where they? Moroso, Mr Gasket or ? I've forgotten.
February 13 2004, 11:30 PM
February 13 2004, 11:47 PM
I think you'd be surprized at the vaccuum signals and how their
strength changes by how these tube openings face.
I have tried different positions on a running engine on the dyno and
found some INTERESTING results as to not only the direction of the
opening but also their position fore and aft. The opening angle
changes as the position in the collector changes. Opemings directly
rearward, openings toward the side and openings directly parallel to
the exhaust flow were ALL favorable depending on where and what
angle the tube was installed. There seems to be NO real correct way
without testing each individual settup.
What kind of HP gains with a nice vacuum pump...
August 26 2003 at 10:39 PM
over the header evac. system? anybody got any comparisons?
"PULLIN FOR CHRIST" Bret
August 27 2003, 9:28 AM
some info for you soon Bret, if we get it all mounted we will pull
with it friday. All said and done, it will have cost 800.00. Haveing
a little trouble finding anyone with experience with them, wondering
also if it would not be better to go ahead and run a dry sump, as I
believe I was told here that you dont have to run a vac pump with
dry sump, but an engine builder here runs both on his TWD, and also
the directions with the pump mentions it as well. ANYWAY, I 'll let
you know Late SAt or sunday how it FELT sounded and looked. May help
August 27 2003, 1:58 PM
I have not tested a vac pump instalation on my dyno to see how much
it helps or hurts, but I did test a Moroso evac kit and it was worth
about 15 horsepower on a 630 horsepower 557 with no other changes,
that's alot in my opinion. Question is, you'll spend alot on a vac
pump setup, but will it gain 15 horsepower for every $50 spent?? I
doubt it! Here's a good one, has anyone ever run multiple evac
systems on an engine, ie. two or more check valves in each
collector, two hoses to a junction block on the firewall etc??
I have a nice vac pump from a 351 Ford that I'm going to mount on a
bracket to allow for easy instalation on my dyno. I want it to be
able to work on any engine with a single V belt. It'll be
interesting to see how it helps with a given amount of depression,
since it takes horsepower to drive the pump it's probably a road of
deminishing returns. I'll post my results after I put this to the
test, could be really interesting.
Vacuum pumps do increase power, but....
August 27 2003, 2:56 PM
Kaase told me that to much vacuum can cause oil pump cavitation. I
also found the same thing at the Reher/Morrison website under the
tech articles. They both say that the vacuum is trying to pull oil
from the pickup, making it harder to pump. I guess as long as you
got good oil pressure, it's nothing to worry about. I want to run
one on mine, too. Racinray runs one and he drains a fair amount of
water out of his catch can after every run. Dave
Peterson has a good set-up. It's a wet sump/vacuum pump combo.
August 27 2003, 3:12 PM
It has four 7/8" vacuum sections along with the pressure section.
The vacuum sections are divided into two pairs with a suction port
for cach pair. You hook one section to each valve cover. It uses a
#16 oil suction to the pan. It runs around $800. This way you get
the best of both worlds.
I run one of those WetVac pumps..
August 27 2003, 5:23 PM
I use it as a 3 stage drysump pump(petersen said thats ok,its a
drysump pump anyway)..it makes about 7-8 inches vacuum going
downtrack on a 512.maybe capable of more,but I have cork v/cover and
August 28 2003, 3:50 PM
Bret not knowing what type fuel or exactly what you are hoping to
accomplish it would be hard to say if the expense is worth it.If HP
is your only goal don't waste the money the increase is very
insignificant.If you run alcohol or run in high humidity then the
moisture extacted is more than worth it.Moroso and Aerospace no
longer have the market cornered.The pump I have cost far less.If you
are interested just post on forum and I will get info for you.
Popular HotRodding did a test.....
August 28 2003, 6:23 PM
On a BBC, a 565" inch I think it was. Anyways, they were able to get
37 additional HP from it with no other changes, I think its kinda
August 28 2003, 8:18 PM
I also read this article and all I'am trying to say is that is a
small amount for the money that it takes to set up a good system.I
have run my car with and without the pump back to back car ran a
5.91 with and 5.92 without that seemed insignificant for the $500.00
it cost to install.Don"t misunderstand am very pleased with the lack
of contamination the engine has since I started using it.But also
believe that small increases on a dyno do not always show at the
Anyone experience lower oil pressure
August 29 2003, 1:05 AM
we set it up tonight, while the gauge showed very little vac((we
seemed to have some leaks)) the oil pressure which normally goes to
80 with rpm, only went to 60. Never showed more than 5" of vac. This
is an aerospace pump, driving a little faster 1.8:1 than recomended
1.6:1. Driver is worried. Motor seemed to respond real well when it
had differant headers and evacs. No signs of oil or steam out the
pump exhaust. Did all this in the shop, so not a good test overall.
I have heard....
August 29 2003, 1:17 AM
I have heard about people taking the air pumps (or more commonly
called "smog pumps"), and spinning them backwards to create vaccuum,
it only makes about 5-6" (?) of vaccumm, and they claim that it
makes a difference. Its all junkyard stuff, so its very cheap to fab
up a system. If it dont work to satisfactory conditions, then its
not like you'd be out a large sum of money.
Don't know about true HP numbers but .......
August 29 2003, 11:46 AM
On a 514 with 11.5:1 Compression in a 3845lb car the best Et without
a Vacuum puump was a 10.44 @ 130mph. I ran this combo for
approximatley 3 years and freshened it every other year with rings
and bearings. So this was as fast as I could get the combo to go.
Only refreshened the motor, and added a vacuum pump and went a 10.36
@ 131 on the second pass out. Pump was an Aerospace 3 vane, Sold the
Aerospace and bought a Moroso 4 vane and the car went a 10.22 @ 133.
Aereospace would only pull about 4-5 inches of Vacuum at full
throttle, the Moroso has to be limited with a relief valve and still
pulls 15-16 at full throttle at a slower spin speed on the vacuum
I think some combo's can really benefit from a Vaccum pump but like
anything else the combo needs to be at it's prime before installing
one. One other note, in my opinion Aerospace just plain sucks ! Not
trying to get a flame started but I have yet to have a good
experience with them, the pump housing will wear out before the
vanes do and thier customer service just stands out like no other
company that I have dealt with before. I also run their brakes
system too but would buy Wilwood given another chance.
August 3 2002 at 9:30 AM
I've reviewed the posts on this subject and the consensus seems to be
split on whether the exhaust header evac systems are effective or not.
I'm not concerned about oil residue from condensation being in the
collectors, but want opinions on if they can do an acceptable job of
relieving crankcase pressures.
There are lots of photos posted here with high-dollar engines having
just breather caps on the valve covers, with no pump/exhaust evac, PVC
setup, or other obvious method of relieving pressure. What are you
guys using? Anything?
Any advice will be greatly appreciated.
August 3 2002, 10:08 AM
I run a 800 HP BBF (Drag Racing) and only use a large hose tapped into
the intake from the PCV Valve on the vavle cover and have never had a
problem. The oil filler breather cap on the other valve cover has been
siliconed shut except for 2 of the small holes in it. Seems to work
fine. Good luck with it --
Re: Crankcase evacuation
August 3 2002, 12:09 PM
I run the header evac. on my race car (changing over to vac. pump and
dry sump) and my street car. Whatever you decide it is my opinion that
on a street/strip application you must run some sort of PVC system, I
don't like just breathers in the valve covers. You must draw the
blowby out of the engine in some fashion to reduce crankcase pressure
and oil leaks, whether it be by header vac, intake vac or a
combonation of the two, or vac. pump.
Intake style will have stronger signal at idle than WOT (but your
contaminating your intake charge)
Header style will be opposite, weak at idle but strong at WOT. (but
your contaminating the atmosphere) You could run the two styles
together with a "T" that way you have signal at all times.
Vac. pump will work at all RPMs and throttle positions and the reside
is collected in a breather tank.
August 3 2002, 1:04 PM
I agree the pump is ideal, I just don't want to spend the bucks as it
isn't a dedicated race engine. Nor do I want to contaminate the intake
mixture, so I'll stay with the header evac system. Randy, did you
place both breathers at the front of the valve covers on your street
engine to avoid the natural buildup of oil at the back? I'm using Ford
Racing valve covers and haven't cut them.
August 3 2002, 1:27 PM
Street car has one at each end (stock FE pentroof covers)and full
lenght exhaust with tail pipes (3 inch all the way!)works great.
RE: Breather location
August 3 2002, 1:33 PM
Ahhhh... So you run two from each valve cover? T them into one bung
each side or two collector bungs each side?
Re: RE: Breather location
August 3 2002, 1:44 PM
Just one from each valve cover. Passenger side it's at back, driver
side at front of cover. Sorry for the confusion.
FE valve covers
August 3 2002, 5:38 PM
I haven't touched an FE in years and don't remember what the covers
look like. In any event, do the FE covers fit a 385?
FE valve cover won't work on 429/460 engine. n/m
August 3 2002, 7:11 PM
Valve covers and thanks
August 3 2002, 8:54 PM
As mentioned, I'm using the tall Ford Racing valve covers made for the
385, so FE fit won't be a concern. My thoughts were on breather
placement, and as cast iron 385 heads have a tendency to gather
drainback oil at the rear of the valve covers under hard acceleration,
I was wondering if the Edelbrock RPMs have that same situation. I
can't inspect the RPM drains, as they're on B/O, shipping the week of
8/5, so if they're the same drain as the cast iron heads, maybe some
valve cover baffle adjustment is in order. With stock valve covers,
that may be the reason some people are finding oil in their header
collectors. Scott has a set of RPMs but I don't think he has them
Thanks to all.
Valve covers and drain back alignment
August 3 2002, 9:40 PM
On the race car, the 466 that was in there was equipped with a pair of
iron CJ heads. The breathers were both at the back of a pair of sheet
metal covers with no baffels under breathers. Covers are very very low
and I had no oiling in headers, but a pair of oil deflecter would be a
good idea. Don't the tall FRPP covers come with a pair of deflectors?
I know they used to.
Like I have said many times before I think some of the head drain back
problems are due to a mismatch of the drain holes at the head gasket
joint. Maybe its just me or if this is a bigger problem than me? Would
like to here some feed back on this, has anybody else seen this??
August 4 2002, 11:20 AM
yes the hole alignment is grossly off.
i havent contured it yet but i probly will on the next freshen
my evac trys to suck the rocker cover gasket in where the middle top
bolt is suposed to be,on fms covers those are deleated,so i put a
small 1/4 20 stud(very short)to hold the gasket in place
Re: Crankcase evacuation
August 4 2002, 12:01 AM
George, I posted on this subject a few weeks or so ago. I was going to
go the evac. pump route but was talked into the header evac. instead
by some friends. The reasoning was because of exspence, time and ease.
With my motor in the car (late model mustang), I had a lot of room to
run the evac. lines through the K-member to the collectors if I
installed them in the front of the valve covers. If I were to run them
from the back it would have been a very tight fit with the headers
etc.. One benefit is that in my car the engine sits a little high in
the front and that should aid in keeping the oil out of the lines. I
also have the FRP valve covers and using AN bulkhead fittings, you can
use the baffles that come with them. Also makes a nice looking
install. Good luck
Gordon 460 1985 GT
Re: Crankcase evacuation
August 4 2002, 9:39 AM
Gordon, any chance of a picture to my email?
Re: Re: Crankcase evacuation
August 5 2002, 9:58 AM
Georged, I would be more than happy to get you a picture however my
car is totally disassembled right now. The chassis is getting all the
final paint since the new cage and mini tubbs, the rear end is getting
powder coated, assembled a new lower end this past weekend, all the
engine bay aluminum is getting polished and so on and so on. I
originally thought the car would make Woodward Dream cruise but
absolutely not! Basically my evac. tubes are set up like this: 90 deg.
bulkhead fittings mounted in the front of the valve covers (breather
locations) which utilizes the baffles. Stainless braided lines run
down in front of the K-member behind the spring and into the bungs
located on the outside of the collector. I used a couple of Adel
clamps to hold the lines in place. If you try this, you may have to
get the 90 deg. fittings and Adel clamps from an aviation supplier. Or
give me a shout and I can help you out (I'm an aircraft mechanic)I
have loads of fittings in my box. Good luck, Gordon
August 4 2002, 12:10 AM
I use a breather in the drivers side valve cover and use a PCV valve
in the passenger side valve cover with a inline fuel filter in the
between the carb and the PCV valve.I have used this setup for at least
6 years the fuel filter keeps oil from sucking into the carb.
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I use e vacs on
August 7 2002, 1:15 AM
my headers.I have expiremented placing the tubes in the collecters in
different places and depths the vacum would suprise you when it is in
the right spot.
Where did you find the best placement?
August 7 2002, 1:22 AM
I've got a closed exhaust, where would you say the best place to weld
in the tube for the evac. system, on my headers?
Re: Where did you find the best placement?
August 7 2002, 3:15 AM
Do you have mufflers?Ihave never ran e vacs on a street car so I have
cant honestley tell you where would be the best place in your
application.I have found the best place on open headers to be about 1"
past where the collecter necks down.A friend of mine turned the
opening of the tubes around towards the wall of the collecters on a
set and he said it would suck the valve cover gaskets in.I built a
vacum pump one time that worked off a 3" water pump.It was a tube that
had a cone in side of it that pressurized water was forced through
with the pump.The cone increases the velocity of the water which
created enough vacum to pump water out of a barge.This was about a 15'
pull I cant hardly beilieve it worked but I saw it with my own
eyes.Everthing has to be in the right place for it to work properly.It
amazes me what air flow can do if properly controlled.
Stock dipstick tube leaks at high RPM
August 7 2002, 10:59 AM
I hate opening the hood and finding the engine bay with a nice coat of
oil on it after every 1/4 mile run. Will the evac system stop this or
is there a good dipstick tube cover that I can buy that will hold the
oil back? Any ideas?
August 7 2002, 11:09 AM
If you seal the dipstick, that pressure will look for another way out,
with seals and gaskets being the easy targets.
A prior post stated the header collector crankcase evac system stopped
his dipstick from being the pressure exit point.
August 7 2002, 1:21 PM
We hook a small spring (like a carb. return spring)through the loop on
the dipstick and through a tab on a water pump bolt. Holds the stick
down tight and is easy to un-hook to read oil level.
August 8 2002, 10:42 AM
I'm going to relocate my header evac pipe, and that spring hold down
is a great idea, thanks!
Crankcase header evac question
December 30 2002 at 2:53 PM
The commercial kits come with no provision for using AN fittings and
ss braided hose. Other than tacking on threaded fittings to the
existing very thin metal fittings, does anyone have a better solution?
Shogun makes one
December 30 2002, 2:58 PM
but it's very pricey. It has braided line, AN fittings and a check
valve at the breather.
Evac horsepower test..
March 8 2003 at 8:46 PM
I did some testing this evening on an engine making a little bit over
600 horsepower to see the effects of the evac system that hooks to the
headers via check valves mounted on the collectors. The verdict,
Peak horsepower without 608 at 6200rpm, torque 660 at 4300rpm. With
the evac system hooked up, no other changes, 626 horsepower at 6200rpm
and 676 ft/lbs at 4300rpm. Everything else about the engine was
exactly the same no more than about 2 minutes between runs.
Now I would not want to jump to any conclusions after one isolated
test such as this one, but evacuating the crankcase is obviously worth
at least some horsepower.
This particular engine is a Dove headed 557 with one carburetor. The
oil pan is the Moroso model for a 4 wheel drive truck application with
no windage tray. It's possible that this is an extreme case with 18
horsepower and 10lbs/ft difference.
March 8 2003, 9:28 PM
I think a lot has to do with the amount of blow bye as well as how
sealed everything else is.
25hp is seeming pretty consistant for header evac stuff.
I think a little more could be gotten with more vacume. I wanted to
monitor actual crank case vacume, but the dyno only had one vacume
port and I wanted to monitor the intake for carb efficiency.
Maybe next time Ill take a stand-alone gauge and figure out some sort
of way to at least monitor the vacume. The morroso pump can be
overdriven enough to really pull some vacuum. I saw a difference of
25hp (well then the ehad gasket popped at 1020)
Kim,what do you use for an oil seperator,with your pump?
March 9 2003, 10:27 AM
ive read if oil gets into the pump its done.
Haven't run a pump yet
March 9 2003, 12:20 PM
On the dyno we used the header extractors.
I have 2 of the 94 cobra electric evac pumps that are supposed to pull
10" of vacume. Im going to try and avoid another belt driven headache.
The electric pumps are fine so long as the motor is kept above the
impeller, the oil mist isnt a problem. Then expell it into small jas
puke cans with a breather.
Dave, can you post a diagram?
March 9 2003, 8:27 AM
I think I understand what you are talking about but, like they say a
picture is worth a thousand words.
Not much to the system
March 9 2003, 10:03 AM
There really isn't anything at all to the system I tested. It's just
two check valves, one in each collector, a piece of 5/8 hose and two
oil separators that look like they came from a Mopar 360 from back in
the late '70's. This kit was a Mr Gasket, but it looks just about
identical to the Moroso.
There was nothing tricky about how the pipes enter the collector or
anything. I do want to rig up something with a guage to see how much
depression it can muster, but I would say it could be a couple of
at idle, 1200 rpm the mopar breather will leave a kicky on my hand
after about 10 seconds
March 9 2003, 10:07 AM
March 9 2003, 10:16 AM
I'm going to T into the line somewhere and connect my dyno vac guage
to see what it's doing. It seems to help power from just below the
torque peak on up on this engine. I was really suprised that it made
that kind of an improvement and this is a very tight engine with
little to no visible blowby under load.
i bet you get at least 6-8 inches n/m
March 9 2003, 10:23 AM
vacuum on a blower
March 9 2003, 5:13 PM
i have my pvc line from the valve cover under the carbs on my 8-71
blower and the vac/boost gauge showes anywhere from 10 to 15 vac at
cruise. i guess i need a vac gauge at the carb base to see what it
would be at full throttle.
i guess if i put my car on a dyno and pulled the line off on one of
the pulls it should make a noticable hp gain.
big difference between the vacume at the carb and vac in case
March 9 2003, 7:05 PM
Your supplying 15in or whatever vacume source to a 3/8" hose to the
case, but you do not have 15" vacuum in the crankcase. Your
measurement at the base of the carbs would be the difference between
the demand of the blower and the ability of the carbs to meet that
demand. 15" of vacuum is pretty bad for a race car, but pretty
economical for a street car.
At WOT, on my NA engine Im ceeping close to 1" of vacume at 8000 RPM.
From crack of the throttle till about 7500 RPM the manifold vacume is
If your running a PCV system and an open breather element odds are
your crankase is under pressure most of the time, to maybe dropping to
atmospheric, pressure when the PCV valve is open.
To run an honest crankcase vacume, no open sources that can be helped,
and it will take a pretty good vacume source to move all the
displacment of the engine out of the crankcase, as well as continue to
pull all the blow-bye out of a loose race engine.
Heeders to pump, worth it?
March 25 2003, 7:24 PM
Owner wants me to find an OEM pump that we can get from the yard to
replace the heeder evacs. Any suggestions? Electric would be great,
but we could with work run it of the crank(8000rpm). Anyone know any
make/model stuff to look for? Or are we getting enough from heeders
not to worry?
belt driven Vacuum system
March 25 2003, 8:51 PM
We done a flat top 598 with a mild roller cam and a set of C heads. we
installed a steffs vacuum system. At 1200 RPMs we ran it at 6 incn
vac. at 6000 it has 14 in. We Dynoed the engine on Kaase's dyno.
started recording at 4000 and pulled it to 7200. without the tank cap
at 6800 it pulled 961. 3 pulls never, shut the engine off. snapped the
cans lid back on 2 pulls at 984@6800. The #s were 20 more straight
down the chart. the most impressive though was watching the oil
pressure stabalize at a higher RPM. I race some now that are using a
smog pump to valve cover and running the breather hose in some sort of
homemade catch can. Don't know how much vacuum they pull or even if it
works well or not. We run crankcase vacuum gauges on all of our
nitrous motors, it will tell you instantly if you have hurt a piston
or rings before you make another pass. But if you gained 20 with a
evac system, thats great and the next one I do I'll save $1800 on the
steffs and try your setup.
Very similar results
March 25 2003, 10:25 PM
Dave, Ive tested NHRA AS/A engines in A-B-A testing with very similar
results. I've seen 13-22 hp with a evac or small pump.
McKeown Motorsport Engineering, Inc.
Any one ever hooked up electric vacuum pump via the fuel pump block
March 28 2003, 7:58 AM
I am planning on hooking one there and see what the results are.
Here is a link to the vacuum pump I am going to use....
March 28 2003, 8:10 AM
Electric EVAC Pump
March 30 2003, 12:02 AM
Larry, We bought one!, OR shall I say Jeff bought one and HE was the
genuiea pig. Tried it out on the Cougar and it Works. Not real sure if
it helped his ET or not but it stopped a small oil leak. I have to go
by his shop and measure how much vacuum it pulls, haven't done that
yet. BUT first observations are IT WORKS!
2001 2002 taurus also use an electric pump
March 30 2003, 10:31 AM
its below the batt tray mounted on the sub frame
April 8 2003, 9:58 AM
I think I would search for a better place to connect to pump. The fuel
pump location will more than likely pull alot of oil.
Well I tried this out
March 30 2003, 11:48 AM
at the track last Sunday. I hooked 3/4 hose from each valve cover to
header collecters clamped to a short piece of tube welded at an angle
toward rear, results were NO oil around twist in breathers, (usually
is), car ran .02 faster than it ever has, not once but 4 passes,oil
stayed cleaner, (alky), also I cant attribute this to the evac. tubes
but most everyone that I spoke to said their cars were running about a
tenth slower than last week, mine was .04 to .06 faster than the
previous race & as I said .02 faster than it ever has, all for a
little welding & scrap hose.
BCR if that worked for you try this
March 30 2003, 12:25 PM
if you did not use a check valve at the collectors, your vaccum was
not constant, I have done this as well. But if you want to do it from
scrap, get you two check valves and but them on the pipe coming out of
the collectors. I have taken them from 350's they are right above the
exhaust manifolds in the smog pump pumbing, and some have three. Also
got a set off a 92 tempo/topaz, but they are under the engine toward
the back, a car with the engine out would be easy to get. Check them
to make sure you can blow through them one way, but not the other.
Install them so you can blow toward the collector, but not back toward
the valve covers. This will allow the exhaust to draw vaccum with out
pulsing and at times pressurizing the crankcase.
I already have um
March 30 2003, 1:26 PM
I just havent put them on yet. Question! When you blow thru it , seems
to take a little press. to crack it open, wouldnt it have to build
some crankcase press. in order to open the check valve? Although it
only takes minimal vacuum to open from other side,I assume this
working from both sides would not allow press to be in crankcase? I
will try them & see what happens. Even if Richard Head Alex from M&M
says my engine cant possibly have that much HP. Richard Head? Whats
the nickname for Richard? Now you get it! BTW my headers are like me &
the rest of my car - unusual, they have 2 in pri & 5 in collecters.
March 30 2003, 1:57 PM
are opened by the vaccum in the exh. before you put them on (check
valves) start er up and put your hand over the hose at the vlave
cover. Get a feel for it, than put the valves on and do it again, you
will notice a big increase in the suction it has on your hand. Well I
did when I made my own set anyway.
March 30 2003, 2:03 PM
Hands on proof is where its at! Now thats what I'm talkin bout!
pump vs evac #'s
March 30 2003, 12:27 PM
still wondering about the differances in numbers, and if we should
replace the header evacs with an electric or engine driven pump on the
electric vacuum pump
April 5 2003, 1:07 AM
vacuum gauge measured 4" of HG using the GM electric pump. What is the
amount of vacuum that is best?
Header evac. on mild BBF
April 7 2003, 12:51 PM
These header evac systems sure seem to offer great benefits at low
cost. Are these systems only truely useful on high-end mega horsepower
setups? Or would it have similar(but smaller) benefits for my
relatively mild (appx 400 hp) 466 in low 12 sec. street and strip car?
Are there any drawbacks? Seems like a win-win situation even at my
April 7 2003, 12:56 PM
I see no reason why the header evac system would not be equally
effective on a lower horsepower application. It seemed to help across
the entire powerband when tested here on my dyno.
I really do not know about the long term effects if there are any,
questions about valve stem oiling, seals etc. I really doubt there
will be a problem with the header system, a vac pump might be able to
do such a good job that valve stem siezure might become an issue.
Electric Vac pump?
April 9 2003, 7:06 PM
I was at the NMRA race over the weekend. One of the swap meet vendors
had a Ford electric vac pump. It looked similar in size and shape to
the GM pumps. It was used and he was asking $100 for it. A little
pricey I thought for a used pump.
I wrote down the part # F6ZE 9A486-DL
Does anyone know what the original application is and how much vac
this pump would pull or any other details? Price?
Thats the electric Cobra Evac pump
April 9 2003, 9:20 PM
Pulls 10" vacuum on the 5.4l blown Cobra engine. It was also used on
other models. Im going to try 2 of them.....
100: Electric Fans
February 1 2002 at 4:05 PM
I'm wanting to install an electric fan on my mild 460 mud drag
truck. I looked at some rapid cool fans at the local parts store and
the box side that that they weren't recomemded for a 460 even
running two 14 inch fan..!! Is there a electric fan that will cool a
460? And that won't break the bank? feedback!
My best shot
February 2 2002, 2:18 AM
I hate to see a post go unanswered so.... I don't see what
difference a 460 has to do with an electric fan. I know they are
hard to cool, even with aluminum heads. I personally would use the
largest diameter fan I can find & be sure to use a shroud. Let us
know if you're successful.
Already answered in your last post
February 2 2002, 8:13 AM
Chrysler K-car or Cavalier
February 2 2002, 5:18 PM
Any O.E.M. tubro car with electric fan are usually pretty good. The
Thunderbird turbo coup has an excellent fan, just check your local
I have one!
February 2 2002, 5:28 PM
If you want to try one
How much radiator for 460 in 69 mustang??
February 3 2002 at 9:27 PM
I am putting out 600hp at rear wheel and would like to get enough
cooling to drive it street legal in 90 degree, high humdity weather.
I am currently using a 19X26" aluminum "Be Cool". It is in the stock
location and is good for only 1 quarter mile pass at the local drag
strip before cool down..... much less a street drive to the local
car show through a couple of stop lights. The original 3 core was
about the same. What size radiator do I need to keep this motor
running cool?? I also run a 14" perma cool fan(2100-2900cfm
rating)with a moroso electric pump. Any suggestions? Thanks for your
February 4 2002, 4:50 AM
I have had good success using a 31x19 alum rad with 2x1"tube core.I
tried a few fans but ended up using a factory 7 blade flex fan + a
permacool fan with the 6 alloy blades @16" diameter.
Just my opinion but i don't think that 1 fan is pulling enough
air..I remember seeing somewhere that a 302 needed something like
3500-4000 cfm to keep cool..
It may not be the radiator
February 4 2002, 8:42 AM
Loose the electric pump and go to a belt driven setup with a factory
or flex type fan and a good shroud before you buy another radiator.
That pump will never make it been there n/p
February 4 2002, 8:49 AM
Can a pump make that much difference?
February 4 2002, 9:22 PM
I do have a 2 or $300 CNC which I haven't put on yet; I can put a
19X31X2inch aluminum on for about 190 bucks; but I have to cut out
the stock radiator area to make room. With the hood on, there isn't
much room for the air to move out of the way either. I hate to spend
money only to find out I didn't do enough. One company makes a
2-pass radiator but$$$$$$, yet I'll spend what it takes to get it
right the 1st time,..remember I live where its hot and humid most of
the year. I appreciate your input and experience...so feel free to
enlighten me much more :-))).dc
Electric Pumps - Electric fans (Long)
February 5 2002, 1:27 AM
Check this out. I have only run my car at the track during the cool
winter months. I have the largest aluminum 1" 2 row radiator that
will fit without a major hack job. I have an electric fan that
almost completely covers the radiator from top to bottom. I have the
high dollar aluminum CSI water pump. I run about 1/4 gallon af
antifreeze in the system to try to keep a handle on corrosion
without getting beat half to death if it spills on the track. Tracks
hate antifreeze because of cleanup time. It's all I can do to get
from the burn out box to the trailer after a full pass without
reaching 190. I even ran down the return road in 4th a few times to
keep it from overheating. I can't imagine pulling out onto the strip
and stopping at a light in traffic. Even though the car is licensed,
inspected and insured.
February 5 2002, 3:16 AM
its all in the fan....I had problems until I installed a fan from a
Lincoln MK VIII. That mother is an 18" that flows around the 4000cfm
mark depending on year and model. It draws enough current that I
killed a 40 amp relay, and had to upgrade to a special 75 amp relay.
no word of a lie, I can feel it blowing out my closed cowl
hood....no problmes since I installed it....
February 5 2002, 8:35 AM
The last time I found fans that pulled that many amps I had to put
on a 100amp alternator the parts house got tired of replaceing them
for free the 3rd time. Running around in the city at night was just
to many amps besides I think the alternator pulled harder then a
belt driven fan
Ken, The Outer Limits
February 5 2002, 8:45 AM
I read your stuff with interest. Even at almost 15:1 I don't run
that hot. Although I have a time or two because of stuff I did
Like electric driven waterpumps.(not enough volume)
Forgot the seperator plate between the pump and housing.(won't push
No thermostat(water doesn't pick up the heat properly)
Put the one head gasket in wrong side front and up. (blocked water
Too small underdriven pulley (pump doesn't turn fast enough to move
Solution - External electric inline water pump draws 15 amps, moves
up to 30 gpm and doesn't care what you did to the motor or drives.
Now runnin 13.8:1 in 90 degree weather with a 302 rad and never over
Running a 3G alternator and Yellow optima
February 5 2002, 12:34 PM
Got a 3G alternator out of a '94 Mustang for $65 from an auto
wreckers, and dished out the $170 for the Yellow deep cycle Optima.
Works like a charm, car never got hot, even during break in (oh, and
I run a Mezierre electicr water pump and no thermostat).
You also wann do everything you can to make sure airflow is
maximized through the rad, and can;t escape around it....seal it to
the front rad support with foam or rubber etc...
BTW, the 94+ Mustang 3g alternator is 130amp!
February 5 2002, 12:36 PM
And it came on the 94" Mustangs, trucks, vans, Crown Vic etc.... it
will say 3g on it, and should sya 130amps (a very few were only 90
amps)....same alternator, jsut different mount bosses.
Ken, The Outer Limits
February 4 2002, 9:53 AM
The electric drive is a no-no. Won't move enough water - ever.
Either drive it with the motor or put a real electric water pump on
it. Say 20-30 gpm
Make sure the thermostat works. If not replace it with a washer with
a i" hole in it.
The twelve in ch fan is ok provided you have shrouding. If the fan
is direct up against the rad it will not draw enough air over a
large enough area of the rad.
I used a truck rad in a Granada once, with a lectric fan mounted in
the shroud and a bus booster pump for a water pump and never got
over 190 in any temp.
put 460 in my 68 torino gt need help with water pump and fan
February 20 2002 at 7:14 PM
Just installed a 460 in my 68, have run into one unanticipated
problem. Don't have enough room between the water pump and the
radiator for a fan only got about 11/2". I have ordered a set of
dual electric fans to put in front of the radiator but would still
like to install fan between the water pump and radiator even if it
is a 4 or 5 blade nonclutch fan. Presently have 74 460 water pump
installed, does anyone know of a shorter water pump? Alsom used 74
balancer and pulleys perhaps some other set up would work better and
anvice would be appreciated. The rest of the story - 74 460 block -
70 429 thunder jet heads and 70 429 cobra jet exhaust manifolds with
edlbrock performer (for hood clearence) intake and 750 edelbrock
carb. Thanks in advance for any help!
February 20 2002, 9:07 PM
Try to find a '69 thunderbird pump. They are 1/2 shorter, but, hard
Aftermarket H20 Pumps...?
February 21 2002, 7:36 AM
If the '69 Thunderbird water pump is shorter than a '74 460 water
pump, is it shorter than either the aluminum Edelbrock or Weiand
Re: put 460 in my 68 torino gt need help with water
pump and fan
February 21 2002, 10:49 AM
pumps and pulleys
February 21 2002, 11:11 AM
A set up from a 68- 69 lincoln 460 or T-bird 429 should work well.
I've got a 460 in my 78 fairmont and use the balancer(has the belt
grooves in it)alt brackets, water pump,fan pulley from a 69 lincoln
along with a smaller diameter non clutch fan with the set up. I also
used the Lincoln rad and shroud and it fit perfectly for clearance.
The later model 460 balancer, pulleys, fan, pump etc, really do
stick out a lot more. The lower inlet on the Lincoln pump is
horizontal, while on the T-bird pump it points downward on an angle,
this may be important when looking for rad hoses etc. I also used
the Lincoln rad, it has the same tanks as the T-bird but is wider
and fit perfectly in the Fairmont. It's sort of an all or nothing
thing, the early/ late model parts don't work well together, ie. the
pulleys will not line up etc. Also I used the spacer from the 69
T-bird behind the balancer, as the Lincoln uses a crank driven ps
pump in this location. This worked fine with the truck timing
cover(no oil dipstick) as I use a rear sump pan. This is a cost
effective alternative, the Lincolns I bought for parts (68, 69
sedans) for next to nothing ($150-$400 ea), and were complete with
running 460's and c-6's.
Watch out for some 68 Lincolns as they still might have a 462, which
is useless for 385 applications. The T-birds or Lincoln MarkIII's
are pricier, even for parts cars.
Thanks for the information
February 21 2002, 3:31 PM
Think I solved the problem, was using a 3 pulley crank setup and
really only needed 2. Cut the outside pulley off and moved power
steering back so it ran on what was the middle pulley, then had room
to mount a 18" flex lite fan, hopefuly that along with the 2
electrics pushing will do the job.
460 conversion into 70 Mach1
January 4 2001 at 8:37 PM
This is a great forum for engine chat and I'm hoping I can use some
of the info. you guys are passing around in here.
I'd like to install a 460 into a 70 Mach1 that currently has a 351C.
It's a street/strip car. I realize Crites & a few other companies
offer conversion kits, but I'd like to get the real scoop on what's
involved in this swap...from the required parts to the joys of
header installation for a guy with large hands. In addition, I live
in Dallas, Texas where it more often than not is over 100 degrees in
the summer. Can I possibly keep the sucker cool and what temperature
can I expect it will typically run at.
Any and all comments are welcome.
Check out my ride.
Thanks in advance
January 4 2001, 9:36 PM
Kit uses stock-type Boss 429 Mustang mounts etc.
Headers should be easier to inst than on my 428 Mach1!!! (anything
is easier than that LOL).
With a thick Griffen radiator and a fan shroud it should stay cool
Go for it !
I did that!
January 5 2001, 12:41 PM
I have done this swop to two '70 Fastbacks, one being my own. I did
not use the kit, so I had to make headers and tinker a few other
bits. Cooling is a problem and the cure is a big rad. Mine is off a
'71 CobraJet and is shortened by about 3" as it's too high to fit a
'70. Keep the big standard fan. Electric fans aren't powerful enough
to keep these cool. I can't help you too much as the kit puts the
engine and box in a different place from mine so there will be
different space issues. The results can be impressive, though! Mine
ran mid elevens at one time (no N20) but I have cut it back to a mid
twelve second car now and it drives sweetly. Your car looks really
clean and nice! Boy would I like a rust free one. I have just spent
the past month welding mine up! Wanna see?
You'll spot mine HTH
I FEEL YOUR PAIN
January 8 2001, 1:28 PM
HELLO FROM KANSAS DARRYL.I MADE THE MISTAKE OF GOING TO THE SWAP
MEET AT THE BALLPARK IN ARLINGTON DURING JULY WOW YOUR 100F IS WAY
HOTTER FEELING THEN OURS.A FEW THINGS I HAVE LEARNED TO MAKE 460
LIFE COOLER . THERE IS A BYPASS HOSE FROM THE INTAKE TO THE WATER
PUMP.IN A COLD CLIMATE IT'S THERE TO BLEND HOT WATER WITH CHILLED
WATER.NOW IN DALLAS WHEN IT,S 100 OUT YOU DON'T NEED WATER THAT
HASN'T BEEN COOLED GOING RIGHT BACK IN THE ENGINE.BLOCK IT OFF AND
DRILL HOLES IN YOUR THERMOSTAT TO RELIEF PRESSURE.ALSO VALVE OUT
YOUR HEATER LINES.AN ENGINE OIL COOLER EVEN A CHEAP ONE CAN KNOCK
OUT 10 TO 15 DEGREES.YOU'VE BEEN TOLD ABOUT ELECTRIC FANS THEY JUST
DON'T MOVE THE AIR.JETING CAN MAKE A BIG DIFFERENCES TO.YOU HAVE A
BEAUTIFUL CAR IT'S GOT TO BE HARD TO TAKE SOMETHING THAT NICE APART
It happened again...
January 8 2001, 5:45 PM
I called yet another Mustang Shop, spoke with their resident guru,
and he too said an electric fan will do the job.
It's always easy to provide advice at someone elses' expense and no
matter how clearly I articulate how hot it really gets down here, I
keep getting the same answer. I know I sound like a stubborn fool,
but I've yet to meet someone down here running a street/strip
460/520 setup who can offer "real world" experience.
When I find a vendor who will allow me to return the product
(electric fan) if it doesn't meet the objective of keeping the
engine cool, I'll stop being reluctant, cut a check, and go for it.
However, I believe it will be a cold day in hell before that happens
and I'll next need to concern myself with the engine starting, much
less keeping it cool.
Thanks for the input.
how much air does a stock fan move?
No score for this post January 9 2001, 10:17 AM
If a high performance electric fan moves 2500 cfm, what does a belt
driven fan move? At idle it isn't very much. An electric would excel
here wouldn't it? I would assume cruise temperature wouldn't be
affected much either. Is the radiator capacity the true limiting
factor? Just some thoughts guys, let me know if I'm full of it.